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Monday, May 18, 2020

Intelligent Facebook Discussion Of Coronavirus Shutdown And Subsequent Opening

Coronavirus: What is a pandemic and why use the term now? - BBC News
A denkschrift on the costs and benefits of staying closed or opening the economy, either way seems rather grim:
THEATLANTIC.COM
Take the Shutdown Skeptics Seriously
This is not a straightforward battle between a pro-human and a pro-economy camp.
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  • Cindy Robertson
    All that may be true but the skeptics fail to see another option; how about a social safety net (aka a golden parachute for the commoners) so that a choice between money or death would not be necessary?
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  • Statler Gilfillen
    raises some serious issues
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    • 1w
  • Judith Yeabsley
    A good analysis of all points, except possibly the most crucial one. The recession was always coming - and therefore all those socio-political-economic costs. The virus had merely hastened it, and made the dominoes fall faster and more simultaneously. As Cindy so rightly says, maybe the answer is not desperately clinging to, or trying to return to the status quo.
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    • Tom Magnuson
      There is a significant difference between a recession in which the economy slides back a bit for a brief moment, I've been through three that I know of, and a depression in which the economy comes to a dead halt for an indefinite period. We had to wait for a blessed World War to get us out of the last depression.
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    • Judith Yeabsley
      Tom Magnuson
       true but an almighty recession was coming. This could tip it towards the big D, which would be catastrophic for many.
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    • Tom Magnuson
      Judith Yeabsley
      According to several pundits when the US economy locks up, China will lock up and it is believed only the Social Democracies have a chance of riding it out without massive losses.
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      • 6d
    • Judith Yeabsley
      Tom Magnuson
       agreed. We're too small not to get slammed but we have a lot of socio-economic reserves to draw upon. Bear in mind also we are tourism, forestry and dairy driven, those don't ride out recession well.
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    • Tom Magnuson
      Judith Yeabsley
       Victory gardens in every yard. Cooperation will see you through.
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    • Judith Yeabsley
      Tom Magnuson
       weeks ago I was talking to Roy about how to turn our garden into a food source if the D happens.
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      • 6d
    • Tom Magnuson
      Judith Yeabsley
       Di and I had gardens during the OPEC recessoin, and a big garden when I was in grade school and she our sole income.
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    • Judith Yeabsley
      Tom Magnuson
       ditto for us when I was a kid!
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      • 6d
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  • Tom Magnuson replied
      2 Replies
  • Sweden’s Coronavirus Strategy Will Soon Be the World’s
    FOREIGNAFFAIRS.COM
    Sweden’s Coronavirus Strategy Will Soon Be the World’s
    Sweden’s Coronavirus Strategy Will Soon Be the World’s
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    George W. Appenzeller replied
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  • Alan Archibald
    Lest we forget…
    China contained the coronavirus and has pretty much re-opened its economy after a brief period of draconian measures. … 
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    • Judith Yeabsley
      Although there is a lot of debate about what actually happened (and is happening in China). Estimates of infection and death rates are many, many times higher than the official stats. Love the Jeb Bush quote 🙂
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    • Jon Rhodes
      Alan Archibald
       Lest we forget China killed tens of million people with their “Great Leap Forward” and has a authoritarian government I can’t believe anyone in the US would elect. Government power doesn’t tend to recede after crises are over. Remember 9… 
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    • Tom Magnuson
      Jon Rhodes
       History quite likely will place Trump alongside Mao, Stalin, and Hitler even if the first writings by Republican victors don't. Don't crank up the shaming crap; our history has very little to brag about. The reason we are the racists that w… 
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    • Alan Archibald
      Jon Rhodes You seem to assume that "Uber Lefties" forget the atrocities of history. I don't know where this assumption comes from but it's in the same ball park with the lunatic right-wing assumption that Hitler's "National Socialism" is "proof positiv… 
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      General George Washington Orders "Complete Destruction" Of Iroquois Settlements
      PAXONBOTHHOUSES.BLOGSPOT.COM
      General George Washington Orders "Complete Destruction" Of Iroquois Settlements
      General George Washington Orders "Complete Destruction" Of Iroquois Settlements
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    • Jon Rhodes
      Alan Archibald I appreciate your responding with a robust intellectual argument. I will go on record in denunciating Trump’s behavior. I’m not overtly partisan, but would fall somewhere between centrist and Libertarian. I’m also anti religion, and extremely pro diversity. My primary frustration with the left is the divisiveness of identity politics and the belief that government can right all the wrongs. I think we should blame ideas and beliefs, not specific genders and ethnicities (i.e. white men) I think this tendency among the left is what created the political opportunity for Trump. You made enemies of 31% US population. I also think your side errs in trying to pigeon hole any white man who doesn’t agree with you as a white Christian fundamentalist or white supremacist. My grandmother was half Native American and half Chinese. Her father was a railroad worker and her mother lived on a reservation. My grandparents were poor farmers. I agree with your goals, but I disagree with how to get there. Giving the government more power scares me. I’m having dinner with my family at the moment, but I’ll read your articles later. Thank you for attacking my ideas and not me personally.
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      • 2d
    • Jon Rhodes
      Alan Archibald
       Also, do you not think it’s likely, or at least plausible, that the mistreatment of Native Americans and Africans was more a function of the time period than one of European males being inherently ruthless. This not an attempt justify the sins of our ancestors, but more pointing out that it was just us. Arabs and African owned slaves owned slaves longer that white Europeans did.
      I’m sure there are more scholarly articles gaff B
      bee. But Wikipedia will serve to Mxmg Iloilo in g
      EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
      History of slave - Wikipedia
      History of slave - Wikipedia
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      • 2d
    • Tom Magnuson
      Jon Rhodes
       The critical difference between US slavery and previous forms is that ours was race based, color coded. Muslim slaves were either non-Muslims captured in battle or Muslims who sold themselves to pay off a debt, that is the Roman model too. O… 
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    • Jon Rhodes
      Tom Magnuson
       Your point is valid. But if I had the time and the desire, I have no doubt that I could find compelling counter arguments and examples of racism out side white males. My fear has nothing to do with my ancestors being exposed as immoral peo… 
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    • Tom Magnuson
      Jon Rhodes
       The problem you must understand is that WASPs have controlled this country from the start until the present, and any concessions to women or people of color had to be wrung out of their tight fists. During Jim Crow we would celebrate our pri… 
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      • 23h
    • Alan Archibald
      Jon Rhodes
       Thanks for your thoughtful, informative reply. My essential disagreement with your view is the assertion that "giving more power to government" doesn't help. Roosevelt helped a great deal. Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid help a great deal. Although I am a native-born American citizen, I am also a University of Toronto graduate and while living in Canada I became convinced that Canada's relatively enlightened government policies demarcate the line between Civilization and what I call The United States of Barbaria. I have also spent considerable time in Europe where I also see the clear demarcation between Civilization and Barbarism. A winner-take-all, unregulated, boom/bust, increasingly consumptive political economy based on petroleum sucks for everyone but the 1-"ish" %. A final note: Trump is taking more power than liberals ever dreamed of, including the power to end the American experiment altogether, replacing it with flag-waving, good-Christian, white-privileged autocracy. As I'm in the habit of saying: it's time to wake up and smell the rohypnol.
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    • Alan Archibald
      Jon Rhodes
       "Zeitgeist blindness" always plays a role.
      However, I am, "by profession," a "Latin Americanist" and, notably, there was robust discussion of "what to do with Native Americans" from the outset of Latin American colonization.
      This debate is epitomized in the lifelong work of Dominican priest Bartolome de las Casas.
      "The Mission," a movie starring Jeremy Irons and Robert DeNiro, is not a great movie, but rather a very good movie that probes this historic issue.
      Bartolomé de las Casas - Wikipedia
      EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
      Bartolomé de las Casas - Wikipedia
      Bartolomé de las Casas - Wikipedia
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